Ep 13: It’s not about the cloak of compliance – Clive Johnson

Adam Clarke 0:02
Welcome to risk sleep repeat, a podcast that features influential guest speakers from the world of fire, health and safety. We’re going to focus on trust based safety, owning and embracing risk and the importance of people over paperwork hosted by me, Adam Clark, Managing Director, and Mike Stevens, CEO of practice 42 If you’re a fire, health and safety professional, join us for inspirational conversations about the future our industry

Mike Stevens 0:31
and accomplish senior executive Clive has 10 years extensive experience operating at board level with blue chip organisations. Clive is an expert at improving health, safety, security and well being culture of any organisation and creating the right environment for people to thrive. His mantra is to be risk aware, not risk averse. a past president of IR RSM, Clive now chairs the conium managing risk well Working Group on behalf of the HSE and sits on both health and construction leadership group and construction clients leadership group, Clive was awarded the freedom of the City of London for his work on health, safety and security. And more recently has been asked by the Cabinet Office to be part of their inclusive economy Partnership Programme focusing on mental health

it’s good that you’ve been able to give up your time for us. Yeah, the last time we met up, we were looking at key things in your career. And people always like to in these sorts of situations with a podcast like to understand where you started from how you got to where you are. And that’s nice to be able to capture that to see how careers change over time. And where you end up perhaps where you are now.

Speaker 1 1:48
Oh, of course. Well, thanks for the opportunity to share a bit of my my work in life. And it all started back in 1973 when I was doing an apprenticeship with my father as a joiner. And after I left school, my father was in the Air Force. And this is awesome. I’m sure to do a joinery trade in the Air Force. Why don’t you inquire? So with that I went off to lead to inquire about joining the Air Force as a carpenter. Lo and behold, there was a trade for a carpenter in the Air Force. And believe it or not it for maintaining boats as it happens. MTB boats. But anyway, that aside, I was then asked to take the aptitude test to see what trades I would be entitled to apply for anyway, came back with a whole list of trades, and one of which was a joiner, I thought cracked it. So I says, right, I’d like to put my name forward to go through the sort of training to be a joiner in the airforce. Oh, that’s great, Clive, he said, but we’re not recruiting anymore for that role. Would you like to do any other role. With that it sort of took the wind out of my sails a little bit because I went away and had a chat with my dad and then came back and then chose a different trade, which was all around mechanical engineering and aircraft engineering that in hand, I then sort of joined the Air Force in September 1974. And went off to my basic training at Swindon, OB and it was what an opportunity that was to sort of not only sort of broaden my horizons on everything, to realise what sort of camaraderie you get from working with that with a guy who’s in the Air Force. But so yeah, so I did ended up doing 22 and a half years in the Royal Air Force going all over the world. I went through three conflicts initially that when I joined the Air Force, the Northern Ireland conflict was still in full flow. And then after that, the Falkland Islands kicked off in 82. So I was based in Ascension Island, with the Royal Air Force supporting the Falklands and I popped down for a couple of times while I was there, but then I came back to ascension. Then after that, there was the first Gulf War in 91, which I was part of with the tornadoes in over in Riyadh. And then after that, the other conflict area was in was in with it was in Bosnia in the sort of early 90s. So I’ve I’ve had a fair sort of very broad experience of what the forces do and what they can do to assist and help other people and but but the Bosnia one was the one that sort of because I was a family guy with children, seeing what was happening over there, it sort of really stuck on the heartstrings. And But that aside, it’s, it was one of those careers, and it wasn’t until left to realise where it had given me, not only from a personal perspective, but from family values and a whole host of different things. You sort of cocooned in an environment for sort of 20 odd years and you don’t really see what’s going off outside until you you come outside. And so just before you leave the Air Force, the Air Force gives you an opportunity to go on what’s called resettlement courses in about 1994 The Air Force were really getting sort of interested in risk management and quality assurance and and sort of health and safety and I thought, What am I going to do when I leave the airforce that in mind I then went and worked in the RAF careers office for a few years in Manchester and I got into Old in setting up all the town shows opened down the country where we had to ensure that the public were safe when they were climbing into a, you know, replica or aeroplane or climbing onto this bit of kit and that. So we had to start doing risk assessments and things like that. So that led them to me doing a resettlement course to do money brush. So, so from from any sort of an engineering sort of career in the Air Force, I then went in basically into quality assurance and health and safety just before I left, and I left the Air Force on a Friday. And I started working for a small specialist, construction subcontractor on Monday, as a health and safety advisor, how’s that? Buddy grant? So, you know, there’s a lot of things I could say talk about in the Air Force, but it’s not until my second career started that you reflect back on what those 22 years gave me to assist me into doing what I’ve done, and to help me get on to do what I have done in another successful career in, in the sort of world of health safety and risk management. Really, Mike,

Mike Stevens 6:05
that’s brilliant, isn’t it? And I think, you know, I look at whether or not I should have done something similar, but I went a different route. But you know, being in the forces, the sons in the forces, and he’s doing all sorts of different things and where he’ll end up, I don’t know, but it’s a transferable skills, people within our profession, is that those skills, which have come from all sorts of different walks of life, are very much transferable into being a practitioner, and actually help you be somebody that that can actually help organisations to perform in, in all sorts of ways not only just in risk management, necessarily,

Speaker 1 6:40
yeah, I think you’re absolutely right, it sort of, as I say, it’s not until you leave to realise what it’s given you whether it’s about management, whether it’s about building relationships with people, adapting to different situations really quickly, all these sorts of things that you do on a day to day basis, I did in the forces, then transferred, as you quite rightly said, into the world of sort of construction and property management, which I’ve been involved with, since sort of

Mike Stevens 7:06
my observations was being in communications was that there was quite a lot of effects forces that would come with those skills from the signals. And on the security side, we were a part of risk management, we had quite a lot of RF, which were x security from logical to physical security, because I was been practising for such a long time, that this thing about people would say to me, you know, but I was in the forces. And of course, there’s no health and safety in there. And you go, well, didn’t you have SOPs and those sorts of things? And didn’t you have to do it in a particular way?

Speaker 1 7:39
It is, yeah, I spot on. And you don’t realise, as I say, until you sort of related to something else, that that’s what I’ve been doing. Yeah, but I think to be fair, all three forces were probably ahead of industry, in particularly in quality assurance, for sure. You know, it’s certainly in the Air Force, quality assurance and, and quality and health and safety sort of linked together really quite well anyway, as far as I’m concerned, and the motto that stuck with me for a long time is about always do the right thing, even when nobody’s looking. So even though you might be doing something on your own, it’s doing it right, because you want to do it right. And that’s was sort of bred into, you’re really in the forces about doing the right thing all the time. You know,

Mike Stevens 8:20
the, the observation was that not having the structure when you when you move from one type of organisation to another, sometimes you move into that organisation, because they want that type of approach where it is very much about, you know, get so it’s a procedure that you go through, rather than a process. And in other organisations, they don’t want that. So if somebody that goes in with that, having it ingrained in them, they find it quite challenging to say, well, what am I supposed to do here and it’s about well, you think on your feet type things in a safety perspective or a risk management perspective? How do you deal with that when you you’ve been worked in a number of organisations and helped in your various roles? How’d you how’d you cope with that? Do you say it has to be one way or the other or

Speaker 1 9:07
the feedback I got about health and safety was always negative, oh, health and safety here to stop the work here to stop that then they’re not enablers. They’re just blockers and I suppose my challenge going forward was to change that perception with whoever I was working. So when I first left the Airforce and started working for this construction company, I went on the tools for six months with the guys working in the business to understand what they did and how they did it. And hopefully to earn a bit of respect from them. When Clive later on down the line said, Oh, we got to do it this way. We need to do it that way. And ever since those early days, have always championed the fact that you don’t need all the regulations to get people to do it the right way. It’s about not using that cloak of compliance to get things done, as opposed to doing it the right way because it’s the right thing to do and, and I’ve had my challenges over the years. Don’t get me wrong. And, you know, quite often health and safety is branded as you do it that way. And you do it that way. And there’s no in between the way that I’ve worked all these years after the challenge that and said, Well, no, if you can, if you’ve got the skills, the ability and the competencies to manage risk, you can take risk on, it’s not about saying you can or you can’t, it’s having those skills and competencies to manage risks as you go. And so trying to educate companies that I’ve worked with, I mean, some companies have been easier to adopt that principle than others, you know, to try and find out what their risk appetite is, when you start, where do they sit in terms of their appetite for risk, some are very risk averse, you know. So, it’s always about getting a bit of a flavour in the field for what the business itself wants. And so as I say, it’s always been a challenge of mine, and an objective of mine, to not use that legislative book or to get things done. And hopefully, over the 20 odd years I’ve been doing it, it’s been well received. And the people that I’ve worked with have have accepted it as a as a health and safety being as an enabler and not the blocker.

Mike Stevens 11:12
No, it’s great. And I would like to pick up on his two things with that is that one is about going out. And like you use the term of being on the tools with the people doing the job, because you understand what their challenges are. But also, typically, they will find the solution once they understand what you’re trying to achieve. Because, you know, they’ll find the either the quickest way of doing it, which often is sometimes the safest way, or it’s not, because it seems like it’s the quickest way, but it’s there’s some risk associated with it. But the other part about it is this legislation tag that we get, which is the bedrock of when I did the diploma, and his teaching diploma, was that we used to spend a week on health and safety law. And it’s helpful because it’s almost like a map. It’s also helps in the conversations you have. But I must admit, early on in my career, that it was a bit of a crutch. For me, it was a bit like, well, it says this here, and it says, you know, section this or whatever regulation that and then you realise that over time, you become more confident in actually, if it looks wrong here, it probably looks wrong anyway. And that’s what you want to try and achieve. And the fact that the legislation sits behind it is interesting. And at the moment in terms of where you are in your career is that you had this incredible opportunity which has arisen with with working for the Duchy of Lancaster.

Speaker 1 12:37
That’s correct, yeah, I’m very fortunate to get the opportunity to work for them. So I made I made a decision sort of probably this time last year that was wanting to retire from the Monday to Friday world of work. And in a previous company I worked with lonsec, they were really, really good at educating and preparing their senior team to do other things when they retire. And whilst at lonsec, there were 12 of us put on a particular sort of leadership course, which after two years equipped you then to put your name forward to hopefully get some opportunity to become non exec directors on different types of companies. So so that two years to the leadership course, which I went on, after the two years, it sort of gives you a different view on life, for sure. It was a fantastic course. And I’d recommend it to anybody who can get on it. What the business did then at lonsec was to say, Well, look, you’ve done the course now we’re going to introduce you to a recruitment agency that recruit non execs, let’s get a special sort of CV put together for you and see how it goes. And so of course, we did that. And then all of a sudden, you get these emails saying these non exec roles that are pretty advantageous, defunded that. And because of all that, you know, I got this opportunity to go for interview for a non exec role with the Duchy of Lancaster. So it was really, really nice to get the invite in the first place, and then go and meet them. And lo and behold, here I am, you know, but it’s, it’s been a long journey to get to that place, you know, and coming out of the Air Force and joining the construction company then given an opportunity then to go on work at Terminal five for the whole duration of the project at the airport that transformed me as a Alpha Theta practitioner, and sort of catapulted me onto a different platform from a client perspective.

Mike Stevens 14:26
And what what in particular, would you say was, well, obviously, it’s a it’s a long projects, that’s huge. That was high profile, but what was there any particular circumstances that you’d share with the listeners in terms of how it set you up for that project?

Speaker 1 14:40
Well, I think the biggest moment was when we were really doors in the project, the managing director of of Heathrow Airport at the time, and the project was a guy called Andrew Wilson No. And there was a meeting with all the investors and the local dignitaries and and the Health and Safety Executive and the like us to he was there to present to them I’m about the project is going to be 7 billion pound project, it’s going to take X amount of years, it’s going to employ all these 1000s of people while he was doing this to the investors in the HSC. It was Kevin Myers, who was the head of the HSE. At the time, he was busy scribbling away at Boulder sort of stats, which Andrew was sort of relaying to the to the audience. And they sort of stopped proceedings as well according to our data and, and what you’ve just said, you’ve probably killed six to nine people on this project, because of what you’ve just said. And Andrew Wilson, GNOME said, Well, if that’s a consequence of building this airport, we’re not going to build it. So you can imagine the sort of initial reaction from people listening to him, but what under what it says we’re gonna do something different. And being a client, and intelligent and informed client like ba were and still are, let’s do something different. And from that point in time, they did something different. And that was about the client is setting the tone for the whole of the project, the client engaging with all the supply chain, the client engaging with individuals in terms of setting up a behavioural programme, from the first day you went onto the site, refreshing it, right. And to you, you finished your work, you know, so introducing this sort of behavioural programme on a project of that size and complexity, really, absolutely changed the way that that health and safety was sort of managed and implemented in industry. So that one moment really stuck with me forever by putting your head above the parapet and saying, Well, look, if that’s a consequence, why are we doing it, we need to do something different. And what ba did was something totally different. And it just changed industry forever, I think, you know, then bigger infrastructure projects, after that inherited all the great stuff that Heathrow did, and that went on to the Olympics and Olympics went on to cross rail, and then that went on to the tideway. And all these big infrastructure projects have just made it better and better as the years have gone on. But for me, it started there.

Mike Stevens 17:01
Well, I guess it’s influenced the supply chain significantly. And there have been some big players in there as well, that would have up for it, I guess, on the basis that you get that lead. But Had you given the MD A good talking to beforehand? Or is it just his nature was it just came naturally to him? Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 17:16
That Yeah. And it get any any left at a BA and became a real sort of driver in in the construction sector anyway. And in actual fact, he was an ex Army tank commander in his previous life, but yeah, so having having that commitment from an informed and intelligent client proves that projects are only as good as what the clients are generally. And if you get a good client, you can really drive that, whether it’s around quality, whether it’s around health and safety, whether it’s or whatever it is, that can set the tone and really influence a whole other supply chain.

Mike Stevens 17:57
But in terms of the non executive position, I had it How does that feel? Or has that look, you know, just so to explain to somebody that’s maybe thinking about where they move to next, or whether or not a non Exec is the right thing to do.

Speaker 1 18:10
I wouldn’t say it’s the right thing for everybody, because the non exec roles which you can get paid for, and the non exec roles, which you do, because you want to do it. And it’s the right thing to do. So, from my experience, I’ve done one exec role, sort of eight or nine years ago, but then when I moved out of London working out to sort of fun that in and that was with a young Westminster Youth Council. So that was looking after all the young lads within the Westminster Burr. So you’ve clogged and all this sort of stuff. So being on as a trustee on their board, was really again, quite quite humbling, seeing what you know, somebody says to you live in Westminster. People think, oh, that’s quite grand. But when you go to Westminster, it’s not as grand as what everybody thinks it is. And you see, I’m working with the kids. And it was really great to do that. So but that was a sort of an unpaid, non exec role. And then I went on to work for a another non exec role within a mental health foundation. So that was a worldwide Mental Health Foundation. So I did that. And currently, I’m doing the non exec role with the Yorkshire Citizens Advice Bureau. So I’ve been doing that for about a year now. So that’s a sort of a giving back type of non exec role. And I suppose going into the non exec role, if you do get paid for it. It’s great, but I think people should be going into them because it’s that giving back time from all they’ve done in industry over the years, and giving your time and expertise and giving it back in a different way. So the Yorkshire Citizens Advice Bureau is very humbling in terms of what they do and how they do it. And so yeah, I really, really enjoy that. And then of course, now I’ve got the non exec role with the duchy. It was a day a month but that’s morphed into maybe probably a day or two days a week, but, but it’s just really interesting.

Mike Stevens 19:58
Really good. That’s great. That whole concept of you having this opportunity now to say that you can give back and we’ve got lots of give is the is the thing in that non executive, they’re not saying that you’re a non exec for health and safety, fire safety, or that it’s about the fact that you’ve operated at a level at senior level, so you can influence and help. And I think that’s incredible, isn’t it that you might have started off thinking, you’re not going to be a joiner, but you end up being somebody who becomes, you know, a non exec, understanding organisations and how they behave and how they need to operate. And I think this is the opportunity for us doing these podcasts is that if we can get the ear of somebody that’s in a senior role that might be a risk taker, for example, on or not, is to understand, you know, what we can bring, and to help somebody make a decision. But, you know, where do you get that information to make the right decisions, which is the, for me has been my mantra is that you can take risks, but you just need to know what it is that you’re dealing with here. And if you can then make the judgement based on information, which is comes from people which are there with a vested interest in the success of the organisation, then health and safety practitioners and the like, are built to bat for you.

Speaker 1 21:14
And you know, they offer so much now to businesses in terms of what they do and how they’re doing. It’s not just about compliance anymore. It’s a real, broader sort of profession. And it’s just great to see lots of younger people coming into our profession, as opposed to when I joined. Most of the people in health and safety were either got the job after so many years, because all the combat the forces to be fair, you know, a lot of people came into it from the forces as a second career. But now I’m seeing lots of younger people coming out of university with a health and safety degree. And one thing I’ve really seen, which is really refreshing is that the younger people coming into the profession, they’re not afraid to to challenge and ask them questions that are a lot more confident than I used to be.

Mike Stevens 22:01
And that I suppose the other part is that I think we touched on at the last time we met and it’s something which is happening within our programme at the moment is there’s a big focus on competence and post Grenfell the position about fire safety, for example. And competency. Yeah, just interested to understand from your point of view CLI that you can have somebody that’s got what I would call all the gongs. But have they got the competency to apply? And what makes up competency? I’m not looking for like a textbook definition here. But what’s your view about competence?

Speaker 1 22:33
Well, it’s interesting, I was at the launch last Wednesday of the new building safety regulator in Westminster, and it was really well attended, and then the HSC. And the MPs really sort of set the tone at the start, in terms of their expectations. And a big part of all that was the competency. And they talked a lot about this principle appointed personnel, this appointed person that’s going to be responsible for these high rise residential buildings. And making it quite clear that you’ve got to take responsibility for your risks that you have in your building, you know, and as of October of this year, if these businesses haven’t got their building safety case, reports submitted that it’s a criminal offence, so they really sort of set the bar on Wednesday in terms of that. But there’s, there was a real focus about the competencies of people now whether it’s the competencies of people during the construction phase of a project, having that competency around fire engineering, or whether it’s the competency about the people that’s pulling the new building safety case reports together, that’s another area of competency. But for me, I’ve always deemed competencies, skills, knowledge, attitude, training, and experience. So all those five ingredients to me make a competency. And quite often, you might not have all them as an individual, but you might have them collectively within a team or within an organisation. So it’s how you use that competency to do what you’re going to do. So it can be an individual competency or organisational competency.

Mike Stevens 24:05
Yeah, that’s really helpful. Who’s because it’s there isn’t a go there. This is it, tick the boxes on one of those. Because today, you might be tomorrow is another day where things have changed and things have moved on. And that whole competency thing is a judgement.

Speaker 1 24:22
Yeah, no, exactly. And, you know, it’s getting these building owners, the CEOs who will become the Accountable stroke printable, accountable person to understand that, well, that’s your building. That’s your risk. You know, you might not be a fire export, but you’ve got John, Joe, Susan, all these people that’s around you, that can help you fulfil that function. So all the way this not on just one shoulders, you can corporately sort of sort of share it, but ultimately that person’s names above the door.

Mike Stevens 24:53
I remember doing a presentation to a board. I was just telling him about you know the health and safety the it’s about getting Getting some awareness into the board and about the legal requirements and you know, where the accountability stops and all the all the good stuff about you know, you are in terms of section 36 and 37 go into the legal bit. And they said, Yeah, but I’ve got a lot of other things, I’ve got to do like that. So it’s not news, I just need to know how to how to implement it and how to run it, and how to kind of measure it and that kind of thing. So I guess everybody understands that in some respect, but it’s just putting it into the health and safety context,

Speaker 1 25:29
just on competency, generally, from a sort of clients perspective, from a health data perspective, and an all around due diligence. Just one little story to sort of share with Mitch, hopefully, it’ll make sense to our listeners, but we have to have paperwork in place. But as we know, paperwork doesn’t make a job safe or healthy. But we have to have it if somebody comes knocking to prove what we’ve done. Now, in terms of competency and due diligence, something I’ve always been in favour of and this is from BIA terminal five days is making sure that you’ve done the proper health and safety due diligence assessment on a contractor that’s going to work on your project. So so for me ever since those days, every contractor that’s ever worked within the businesses I’ve worked, they’ve all been sent quietus a bespoke health and safety assessment to assess their competency to do that particular role. So and they’ll say it doesn’t make a job safe. But if anything goes wrong, you have to prove how you’ve done your assessment on that contractor or architecture or whatever. So back in 2014, it was we had a fatality on one of the projects that I was involved with this fatality happened on a Friday afternoon. So I was swimming to site that Friday afternoon. So the HSE were there the police were there major project, this really big project central London. So the first thing the health and safety executive said to Clive, can you prove to me that you’ve done the right competency assessment to point that principal contractor, so as soon as I got my documentation out the HSE, and that they took the foot off the gas, so then asked the same question of the contractor, principal contractor, can you prove to me you’ve done the right health and safety assessments for that specialist subcontractor. So they start at the top, and then they work their way down? So as I say, people didn’t make it safe. But what it does do, it makes sure that, you know, you can show that you’ve done the right sort of process if the inspector comes knocking in terms of what you’ve done to assess them for the competencies, and that’s stuck with me forever.

Mike Stevens 27:38
In terms of the work that you’ve been doing, I remember he’s talking about you being interested in the no false

Speaker 1 27:44
Yeah, no false foundation. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, he’s still part of that. Absolutely. We’ve got a meeting on Monday, as it happens, and I’m very active with that, because of my passion for making sure that all work in I activities are properly planned and executed, then like and, unfortunately, falls from height are still the biggest killer within construction and agricultural sector. So we’re still trying to raise the profile on working ICT activities to get the right equipment to, to carry out these functions. So yeah, so heavily involved in that. And we’re just putting together which we’ve we’ve sort of had a bit of help from our colleagues in the States. We’re sending out a questionnaire in the next couple of probably in about next six weeks to the construction sector, agricultural sector, asking them a series of questions about falls from height, and equipment and investigations, to try and get a bit of a flavour of why these falls happen. Really, and, and hearing from people that investigated accident in people that’s had a fall and been able to tell the tale. So when we get all this intelligence back, it might give us some really useful data as to where to focus our attentions. But currently, from the no fault false foundation perspective, our evidence suggests that, more often than not, it’s lack of training, not competent to do it, their behaviours, sort of, in terms of improvisations, I think the right word, you know, they might have driven several miles or 200 miles to do a job and then got the right equipment, but little then improvise to, to get the job done. So. So yeah, the false, you know, false foundation is really something obviously, keen to be part of, and that we’re doing some great work to educate lots of industry sectors. Yeah,

Mike Stevens 29:31
that’s great that that’s going out there. And it’s just one of those sorts of areas that to focus on. And if you can make a difference, then that’s a great difference to make. And I suppose this this thing about, you know, that tone about the competency piece, again, is the knowing what to do, but then when you get there and things are different, and it’s about then knowing when to stop.

Speaker 1 29:53
It is yeah, and having that yeah, having that courage to stop say I’m not doing this because because some people want to do things don’t they? The Natural Instincts are getting to RB All right, I’ll do this, I’ll do that. And then lo and behold something else. There was one thing which I don’t know if I’ve time just to share with you, which is sort of advice to anybody that’s in their career from from health and safety or risk management perspective. And it’s about them having their own board around them. And this is something that I’ve had over the years. And it’s I think it’s put me in good stead to progress as I’ve done and doing what I’ve done. So so what I’ve always had is a mentor, a coach and appear. So a great example of this was my co Atlantic, I used to come out of my meeting monthly meetings with my boss, the CEO, and I used to come out, totally inspired. Even if I felt it just got this ability to sort of look at things differently. Mentor me, have you thought about doing it this way club you’ve thought about doing, and you’re thinking, wow, so having that different set of eyes and view from a CEO perspective, for me, it was it was great, I’d always come out really motivated. And then it’s also having that somebody then to coach you as well. And this is where had that sort of leadership training where you had you had a coach allocated to you. So that was that. And then the other bit for me was having appear within my own sector, that I would bounce things off. So anybody going forward to progress, those three sort of aspects or ingredient for me, was the key to my success, I think, and it worked for me. And it was all about sort of building a team around me that not one of them was the same. Everybody had their own different thing that they could bring to the party, I used to align it with my passion for cycling, every every part of the bike has got a different part to play. In the business. Probably when I first started in my business, I was probably on an old rally bike. And when I left the industry, I was probably on a a carbon fibre, Italian Pinarello, which has got all the right bits in the right places, doing all the right things to make the business work. I used to use my bike as an analogy for forgetting all the right things in the right place.

Mike Stevens 32:05
But it’s great that you’ve added this in Clive because it’s it’s a massive element to people growing to be the professional practitioner is this thing about recognising who is a mentor. And it doesn’t have to be a label, it can be somebody that you will go to and trust to mentor you, which is in your case with a CEO who was inspiration, which is brilliant. And that and that coaching part about that we all probably need to play a part as a coach, because there’s situations where it’s not about I can tell you this thing, but what do you think is the solution and then come up with it, and become that coach and help people to come up with the right decisions. But then also looking at people that like you saying, you’re in a different sector, and benchmarking and doing that kind of thing is important. I remember that was quite challenging for me, people say well benchmark yourself. And that led me to build a network where you could go and ask others about what it looks like. But that’s a brilliant bit of advice for anybody. And for those people that get asked to be a mentor. It’s something that a lot of coach, it’s sometimes about what does that mean? And how can we get people to be mentors or coaches to that they understand what it means brilliant is really great to speak to and inspiring and the listeners will find it really, really helpful. And from whatever stage they are in their courage to listen to somebody that’s done as much as you’ve done, and an interesting life that you’ve you’ve led and you’re still leading, doing some great things. So that’s that’s really great five

Unknown Speaker 33:36
Thank you very much, Mike enjoyed that. Thank you.

Adam Clarke 33:39
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