Tracy Seward 0:04 

Introduction

Good morning and welcome everybody to the Praxis42 webinar, Martyn’s Law and what it means your organisation.

I’m Tracy Seward at Praxis42 and today I’m joined by our expert panellists, who I’m going to introduce you now.

Adam Clark. He is our MDF consulting practice 42. Adam has a background in occupational health and safety over 15 years, working with his clients to understand their challenges, and then supporting them in understanding their compliance needs and tailoring bespoke solutions to fit that.

We’re also joined by Ben Harris director at BlockPhish. Ben served for 22 years in the British military and specialised in counterterrorism, counter insurgency, and counterterrorism strategy operations.

At BlockPhish Ben manages physical security services, safeguarding organisations against the emergence of cyber physical attack methods, a rapidly growing and pervasive threat which is transforming the structure of the cyber risk landscape. He is a member of the Security Institute and is clear to the highest levels in the UK Government.

We’re also joined by Andy Goulbourne, divisional director at Howden Sport and Entertainment, and he’s been there for over 14 years now and works with the national governing and representative bodies of sport in the UK, providing tailored insurance broking and risk management services to clients operating across the sport and entertainment sector.

Alongside this, Andy supports clients to help them provide comprehensive protection and risk management solutions for their members, clubs, and coaches.

So over to you, Adam.

Adam Clarke 2:32 

What is Martyn’s Law?

Thank you, Tracy and good morning, everyone. A lot has happened since the Manchester bombing occurred in May 2017 when 22 people sadly lost their lives. An inquest into the bombing was undertaken, alongside campaigns from the victim’s families, most notably Figen Murray, mother of Martyn Hett.

Fast forwarding to today we have a draft bill for Martyn’s Law, which gives an outline of the intended legislation. Today we’ll be discussing Martyn’s Law from a number of perspectives and how it may impact organisations [including] those who will have already had terrorism built into their risk profile and organisations which will now come into scope and want to now need to consider how they can plan assess and mitigate.

As a reminder, before we get into the webinar, Martyn’s Law is currently a draft bill and may be subject to change before becoming an active.

Thanks to Ben and Andy, for joining me today. I’ll now hand over to Ben who will be outlining the key parts of Martyn’s Law as it stands, and his thoughts on the subject.

Ben Harris 3:32 

What does Protect Duty legislation mean for duty holders?

Yeah, good morning. Thank you, Adam. Adam, morning to you all, and thank you for joining. I hope that my contribution to this webinar will […] give you the attendees a better understanding of the broad context and what it might mean for duty holders applicable organisations and businesses.

I have assumed no prior knowledge or understanding of the Protect Duty bill, or Martyn’s law, but hope that all will leave with a better clarity and understanding.

Why is Martyn’s Law being drafted?

I’ll start by going back to 2019. Two years after the tragic events of the 22nd of May 2017 and the Manchester arena bombing in which Adam already said 22 people were killed, and what is lesser known that 1017 people were injured. Then Metropolitan Police Services counterterrorism protective security lead for London, Nick Holdsworth, together with Figan Murray, the mother of Martin Hett, who was one of the 17 victims, addressed an audience of 400 security representatives.

So compelling was her address, she got […] support from the defence and security industry representatives […] to back her campaign and begin the inception of Martyn’s law, which we now know as the Terrorism Bill or Protect Duty.

[…] in the final Martyn’s law report, Nick Holdsworth is noted as stating the paradigm shift in the nature of terrorism means that the state’s primary responsibility of protecting its citizens is no longer achievable through the existing and very limited provision of state-owned protective security resources.

The spaces and places in which people live, work and enjoy democratic freedoms are the very places that terrorists wish to attack. They are so numerous, it is unreasonable to expect the state to provide security everywhere.

Fast forward then to February of 2021, the Home Office launched a consultation on how the UK Government could improve protective security and organisational preparedness [for]publicly accessible locations across the UK.

On 2nd of May 2023, the draft bill or CP 840, which is the draft publication and pre-legislative bill was released for scrutiny by the Home Office’s Affairs Committee. And the bill, amongst many priorities, will help keep people safe and enhance national security by ensuring preparedness for and the protection from terrorist attacks.

And this will include proportionate new security requirements, which will be introduced for certain public venues and locations.

What’s the aim of the Government’s counterterrorism strategy (CONTEST)?

So, in terms of the policy background, the aim of the Government’s counterterrorism strategy or CONTEST is to reduce the risk to the UK and its citizens and interests overseas from terrorism, so that people can go about their lives freely and with confidence. And the bill will build upon CONTEST pillars within their strategy that will protect and prepare.

Now very quickly, the objectives are prepare, protect, detect and deal with suspected terrorists and harmful materials at the border, reduce the risk to improve the resilience of global aviation, other transport sectors and critical national infrastructure most at risk to terror attack, and then reduce the vulnerability of crowded places specific vulnerable groups and high profile individuals. And in so doing, detect and protect terrorist access to and the use of materials of concern, knowledge and information that could be used to conduct attacks.

And then similarly, the objectives of prepare are to deliver a coordinated multi-agency response to all types of terrorist attacks [to] ensure that the UK has a full range of capabilities to respond to current and future threats and minimise the impact of terrorist attacks on people services and communities as a bit of a policy background.

So, looking very quickly now, a person responsible for qualifying public premises or qualifying public event will be subject to the terrorism protection requirements set out in the bill, noting that it is still a draft bill.

Will Protect Duty apply to all premises?

A person who is responsible for qualifying public premises (if the person has control of the premises or event, both of which must be except accessible to the public), and premises are included by reference their use, and both events and premises must have the minimum capacity specified which I’ll come on to in due course.

Qualifying public premises may be located within other premises so they might not stand alone. And that can include for example, a retail store within a shopping centre.

And the requirements will not apply to premises that are used as part of private dwellings for offices; they are excluded from the draft bill.

So very quickly [looking] at qualifying public premises – they will differ by either being a standard duty premises or an enhanced duty premises.

Enhanced duty premises are those with the public capacity of 800 individuals or more, and a standard duty premises are those with a capacity of between 107 and 199. There [will be] […] requirements which will apply to enhanced duty premises [that] will also apply to qualifying public events. And these are public events held at premises that […] are not qualifying public spaces or places with a capacity of 800 or more 800 or over, where express permission is required to enter the premises for the purpose of attending the event.

What will be expected of a person responsible for a standard duty premises?

8.59

So, a person or persons responsible for standard duty premises will be required to undertake what are intended to be low cost or no cost activities, which seek to improve protective security and preparedness in line with CONTEST strategy.

Those persons will be required to ensure that relevant workers are given appropriate terrorism protection training.

It is expected that they will also be able to utilise free terrorism protection training materials to educate relevant personnel on the threat posed by terrorism and the actions personnel should undertake in response, and I’ll come on to those measures in a moment.

The persons responsible for standard duty premises will also be required to undertake a […] standard terrorism evaluation in which they consider how best to respond in the event of a terrorist event. For an example, that could be the procedures to evacuate those premises.

What will be expected of a person responsible for an enhanced duty premises or qualifying public event?

Persons responsible for enhanced duty premises or qualifying public events will also be required to ensure that terrorism protection training is provided to relevant workers at their premises. In addition […] they must appoint an individual as a designated senior officer for the premises or event and must complete and regularly review their terrorism risk assessment.

In completing this assessment, they will consider the types of terrorist acts that might most likely to occur and in or around their premises or event and the reasonably practicable measures that might be expected to reduce the risk of such an act occurring, or the risk of physical harm to individuals as a result of such an act.

Persons responsible for enhanced duty premises or a qualifying public event must implement reasonably practicable security measures to reduce the risk of all harm caused by terrorism, terrorist acts occurring at or near the premises or event.

And measures must include, for example, those relating to monitoring the premises and vicinity, and procedures to be followed in the event of the attack.

10.52

The persons that are responsible for enhanced duty premises, and I remind you that’s premises with a capacity of 800 or more, or indeed a public event, must also keep or maintain the security plan, which must also be provided to the regulator (I’m coming to the regulation in due course), and  security plans, documents, amongst other things, information about the premises or event, the person responsible for that premises or event and information arising out of compliance with the other requirements.

And again, I’ll remind you, this is a draft bill, so the requirements that are included in the draft bill at the moment may well change before it’s finalisation.

What is a qualifying premises under Protect Duty legislation?

11.57

So, we’ve already talked a little bit about the difference between standard and enhanced duty premises, but just really what is a qualifying public place?

This really leads back to schedules within the draft bill. But a qualifying public place against schedule one includes any premises that is included for the use of sale of food or drink (for an example, a bar or a nightclub), and/or the provision of an entertainment.

So, it could be a theatre, stadia, a sports ground, or anywhere for recreation, exercise, or leisure. But as I’ve already said, […] other premises [may be] included as part of that list.

How is Protect Duty part of the Government’s counterterrorism strategy?

12.13

So, the [Draft Standard Terrorism Guidance] draft standard terrorism form that [is] applicable to the standard premises, covers a three-step process of Think, Plan and Activate, and the British government love this sort of three-word titles, is a simple form, which provides a plan and actions which will enable the recognition and response to a terrorist attack.

And obviously, that will change significantly against the threat level, which at the moment [the] UK is currently marked as substantial. So, we can expect that the Think, Plan and Activate plan should change according to the threat that is currently posed against Britain and its allies.

The enhanced risk assessment that is for premises of 800 or more, is a more detailed and exacting assessment, which covers the types of acts of terrorism that are most likely to occur and are in the vicinity of the premises or the event. And it also includes reasonably practical measures that might be expected to reduce the acts of terrorism of the types identified, occurring in the immediate vicinity of the premises or the event. And it also includes measures to reduce the risk of physical harm to individuals, if acts of terrorism and types identified were to occur in and around the building of the premises.

Will the government provide terrorism protection training?

13.42

So, what do they mean by terrorism protection training, when it relates and how it relates to the qualifying place?

Given that there’s still a draft bill to the Secretary of State made […] [changes could be made to prescribing regulations and other stipulations] which might affect the training [requirements] […]

And it really relates back to a number of conditions which are applicable to your organisation, the first of which is the size and the other characteristics, […] and where the event is to be held, and the use of that space and the nature of the event, and also includes the responsibilities of the relevant worker in relation to that premises or event.

And there was a proposed training package called the Act or Action Counterterrorism, which is intended to be a generic no or low-cost training package. And the current package includes a number of sub-training packages, the first of which is to identify security vulnerabilities. And I must stress this is very much a generic training package, which bleeds across both the standard and enhanced premises.

And identifying security vulnerabilities […] are really about proactive engagement. So that’s ensuring that your relevant workers are up to speed and identifying threats proactively in advance of an attack and […] specific organisation and structural vulnerabilities. And that could include the recognition and response to unusual or specific suspicious behaviour, and also the identification of subtle, optimal working practices that could be exploited.

[…] The second part of that is the identification in response to suspicious activity, which is loosely called the identification of hostile reconnaissance. And that would be to train people how to detect and develop an understanding of the environment and be able to create a baseline. […] it means that it’s easier to identify unusual suspicious activity in your day-to-day business and day to day work in practice.

And really, the intent there is to get ahead of the attack, and look at the attempts to disrupt attack planning, not in isolation.

But to be able to communicate that threat or that hostile the recognition of the hostile reconnaissance to first responders, it then really moves into the identification and responding to suspicious items.

So loosely describe or define what is a threat. What are the mechanisms of the threat? […] vehicle as a weapon attack, could be bomb blast or blade, and then also starts to look at common hosts. Looking at modus operandi for terrorists, how attack plannings have recorded and witnessed in the past, and the lessons that we can identify and learn from that.

They also have some useful acronyms, one of which is the HOT process, which is to identify suspicious activity or suspicious items that are hidden, or obviously suspicious or typical. It gives your workforce the opportunity to better identify those ahead of time.

It then goes into what to do in the event of a bomb threat, that’s going to be the actions that you would take on receipt of a call, even if it’s a hoax call. And then teaching people how to confirm clear, communicate and coordinate the response to timely response in the event of such a call.

And it really calls for organisation planning from the top to the bottom to ensure that everyone knows what to do, should that happen. It then bleeds into how to respond to specific attack methods.

And it will differentiate between the proactive measures that is your risk assessment, your risk training and risk preparation, and then the measures that should be taken in reaction to an attack. Those could include the government strategy of Run, Tell, Hide, but then it also starts to look at how we can work against psychological stresses. So how you can cope, how you can manage yourself in such a situation, in order that the best outcome can be achieved.

Will there be penalties for non-compliance with Martyn’s Law?

17.46

Finally, just very quickly, looking at back at the bill, the sort of registration enforcement and penalties.

So, the draft bill states that the person responsible for qualifying public premises must ensure that the premises is registered with the regulator before, or as soon as reasonably practicable, after the details of the event is first made available to the public, or a section of the public.

Then clauses within the draft bill enable the regulator to issue a contravention notice to a person where the regulator has reasonable grounds to believe that the personal/persons are failing to comply (or has failed to comply) with the relevant requirements.

And those requirements will be defined and refined within the final draft bill or the final bill. The effect of this notice will be to impose requirements to remediate any non-compliance.

And by complying with the specific relevant requirements within a specific period (it’s time bounded), and as part of the notice, the regulator may specify steps that the person or persons are required to take to comply with the notice.

If after that notification, the non-compliance continues, and actions to remediate the contravention have not been conducted, then restriction may be given.

And then if we start to look at the penalties, they become quite hefty. So, a penalty notice for a standard premise is currently set at £500 per day, with a maximum fine of £10,000.

And then for enhanced premises (which the vast majority of places to which the bill will be applicable), it’s going to be the greater of £18 million or 5% of the person’s qualifying worldwide revenue.

So, some pretty significant fines that can be imposed against contravention or non-compliance with the bill.

That is a very, very quick canter through what is a very, very lengthy bill still in draft form. But hopefully that will sort of tease out the wave tops in terms of the form, the function and the direction in which the bill is taking, and understanding what you as a duty holder will need to abide by and how it differentiates between a standard premises and enhanced premises.

Thank you very much indeed for your time.

Adam Clarke 19:50 

Will all premises be required to significantly improve existing risk management strategies?

Thanks, Ben. And so, let’s just go and reflect back on to the qualifying premises…would it be fair to say, in your opinion that anybody who is in scope as an enhanced, some of the items that you’ve listed should already be part of their risk management planning and should have some of these measures already in place?

Ben Harris 20:14 

It certainly should. But I think it’s a timely reminder. You know, terrorism is by no means new. And thankfully, there’s been some years since we’ve had a last attack. So, it’s always worth a review.

And as it says, you know, it’s reasonable practical measures against the current modus operandi of terrorism, how it’s changed over the last few years.

It certainly should be part of any risk analysis score or risk management process that is always, always worthy of a timely reminder to ensure that it’s fit for purpose.

Adam Clarke 20:41 

Will the government provide guidance for small organisations and charities?

And there’s been a fair criticism around the government’s impact assessment of this bill, especially when we’re looking at the very small, small organisations or charitable organisations that it will need to now find some resource to be able to take this to take this on.

How do you think they’re going to be best to approach this? Do you think there’s going to be enough guidance documents out there for them to be able to actually take a fairly pragmatic view on how this is gonna impact their organisation?

Ben Harris 21:13 

Will the government provide adequate Martyn’s Law training?

I think so. So, in the first instance, there is, as I said, a lot of no cost or low-cost training material that is available for duty holders and their employees or their workforce. And it certainly serves to give an organisation business or people at baseline.

I think it certainly needs to be supplemented with other training, other training methods, other training practices.

I think, certainly from a proactive perspective, a lot of the free material is great in preparation, you’ve already mentioned risk analysis, risk measures that can be taken, and some practical and realistic training packages that can be delivered to the workforce.

Where potentially some improvements could be made is certainly in the reactive post incident space. So, I’m not seeing a lot of material about how to actually respond during a terrorist attack, specifically around the Run, Tell, Hide. There is no sort of significant detail about how that should be operating. So, somebody can potentially hide wherever they wish. But what does the adoption of a defensive position look like? How do you maintain an active line of communication?

And then similarly, [what are] the mechanisms of injury can be expected in a terrorist attack at its worst? I don’t know that some sort of basic first aid will come anywhere near providing the level of training that people might need in the event of a terrorist attack.

So those are sort of areas where I think there is certainly enough material in preparation, but not necessarily enough in terms of the granulation and detail that’s required.

Adam Clarke 22:47 

Will the health and safety offer comprehensive Martyn’s Law training packages?

I think it’s fair to say, generally speaking, that small and medium sized organisations when it comes to emergency preparedness across not just what we’re talking about today, but you know, other elements are not always as prepared as they, as they can be.

And it tends to be a more of a reactive approach when things occur. So, I very much agree with you that I think it’s great that we’re going to have some training that’s available. And if the government doesn’t provide more than no doubt, industry will look to fill that fill that gap.

So, there’ll be elements where people will have a range of different training modules, depending hopefully, on what’s specific to them. […]

Hopefully [we will] see some [government training] coming out over the over the coming months.

When will Martyn’s Law come into effect?

And the moment I suppose the question, when will the bill go live, is that we don’t know. If I was guessing, in in the autumn. But really until the bill has had enough scrutiny, we can’t put a date on it.

Is the Draft Bill likely to change?

Whilst there may well be changes, I would expect that, a lot of what we see in there will be what comes live. There’s opportunities to start thinking about and preparing for now.

So, I can just hand over to Andy now who will give us a bit of a view from an insurance perspective, what we’ve talked about so far. Thank you, Andy.

Andy Goulbourne 24:45 

How prepared are organisations for Martyn’s Law?

Thanks, Adam. Just by way of background, so I work in the sport and entertainment division at Howdens and so we work with predominantly national governing bodies of sport. The venue, sports, new providers and the like.

And this is a topic that’s really quite drawn – quite a lot of focus from our sector because an awful lot of the venues that our clients work with are going to be within scope. It shows a little bit, I think the range of the type of venues that are going to be affected by this.

And you were talking Adam, just then about the level of preparedness that already exists within different types of venues. So, if you take cricket as an example, Lord’s Cricket Ground is, I’m sure very, very well prepared in terms of considering the terrorist threat and what they do with regard to that.

But the Martyn’s Law bill will bring into scope…the vast majority of local cricket grounds around the country, many of which are relatively remote, and probably haven’t given any of this an awful lot of thought in the past. And that applies across an awful lot of sports like football, rugby, tennis, and really any other kind of sport where there’s a premises, where there’s a location, where the activities […] before you then get into the music and entertainment side of all of this as well.

I know from our sector, there’s a fair amount of lobbying going on in terms the impact this is going to have, what the effects that will be on the volunteer burden. And there’s various different discussions happening already in terms of the impact this will have on organisations with being able to deliver that level of risk management and preparedness that they need to do.

Will insurance requirements change in response to Protect Duty?

The insurance aspects of this is relatively straightforward, in fairness, and nothing from what we’ve seen today is actually going to change in terms of how the insurance policies insurance market will respond to these kinds of requirements once the bill is in force.

So, once it’s an active, it will create requirements of venue operators, both large and small, as we’ve discussed, but from an insurance perspective. They will then look for those venue operators to be implementing these requirements and these regulations in the same way, as they’re required to implement a huge range of health and safety regulations that exist already.

The two questions or the two areas where I think it’s probably most pertinent from an insurance perspective, therefore, or with regard to non-compliance with the regulations and claims that are brought in respects of that.

But then also in respect of the terrorism protection itself, given that this is a preparedness to prevent an act of terrorism and the impact of that act of terrorism on a venue, I think it’s a natural extension to that question of well, what is the insurance market doing in terms of providing that terrorism protection, so that there’s some financial support for organisations if the worst has happened.

Taking those individually, the first one with regard to non-compliance, as I say that would fall very much into the same area as we would expect non-compliance with any existing health and safety legislation. Most organisations will, or at least should have, an element of directors’ and officers’ liability or management liabilities insurance in place. And that certainly from a corporate legal liability point of view, will provide an element of protection to organisations in respect of claims that have been brought against them.

One thing, and given the scale of some of the fines that Ben was just describing, one of the most important things to bear in mind with this, in the same way with any sort of penalties that are imposed for non-compliance in respect of other areas, penalties that are imposed and financial penalties that are imposed in respects of non-compliance with Martyn’s law, when it’s enforced, aren’t something that will be able to be covered under insurance policy.

There’s a public policy argument against providing insurance protection for punitive fines. It’s something that all insurers will exclude across the piece. So, if an organisation is subject to a fine as a result of non-compliance, that’s not something that the insurance policy is going to deal with. Albeit it should hopefully provide some legal support in terms of dealing with the investigations and the tooing and froing, with the regulator as and when that happens, moving to the actual insurance cover itself.

Again, the changes that have been brought in as a result of the inaction of Martyn’s law and the introduction of the bill aren’t something that’s expected to change the insurance market from a terrorism insurance point of view that exists already. That’s something that organisations are able to go out and purchase should they feel they have a need.

Will smaller organisations need terrorism insurance cover?

Again, going back to the example that we said before with regard to Lords cricket ground, I’m sure has quite extensive terrorism insurance protection in place. Chipping Sodbury village cricket ground probably doesn’t because they don’t perceive it to be a risk. I’m sure it’s not something that’s come across their radar as it is at the moment.

Also, the bill will raise this in the consciousness of an awful lot of organisations that probably haven’t considered it before. It’s then a decision again, that needs to be taken to consideration around whether to look to buy terrorism cover at that point, putting insurance cover in place for terrorism along with ensuring your property or your revenue from a business interruption perspective is a commercial decision to a large extent where it’s not a legal requirement.

Will terrorism insurance be mandatory under Protect Duty?

And there’s no legal requirement to have terrorism cover either existing or as a result of what would be in this bill. So, it’s very much a decision that organisations of venues would need to come to based on their risk assessments.

And to a large extent based on the preparedness that you’re putting in place on the back of the requirements to comply with the bill that will then hopefully, based on the level of risk that you’re presented with, [inform] a decision around whether you look to buy terrorism cover or not. But that’s available in the existing market. And there’s no expectation that that’s going to change going forward.

Adam Clarke 31:16 

[…] I’d expect for the larger organisations that you work with they’ll be very aware that this law is coming and looking at [how insurance] aligns with what they’re what they’re currently doing, I suppose on a more voluntary basis, rather than something it’s going to be more of an enforced basis.

But for smaller organisations, that may not even be aware that Martyn’s law is coming, do you think it’s gonna be a case for the insurance industry to be engaging with their clients to try and raise the awareness of ahead of it coming live?

Ben Harris 31:53 

Should the insurance industry raise awareness of Martyn’s Law?

I think there’s an awareness that’s necessary certainly in our sector, and across an awful lot of sectors from a sport and entertainment point of view. Particularly with regards to sports, an awful lot of local organisations, local clubs will look to their national governing bodies for guidance. I would expect [that’s what] sport national governing bodies should be doing.

And we’re working with various national governing bodies to put these kinds of awareness programmes in place so that they can upskill their volunteer workforce throughout the network to be able to, to fulfil the requirements as in when they come in.

How will volunteers be made aware of Martyn’s Law?

Volunteer burden is a topic that comes up an awful lot. And that’s probably the primary concern, I think that an awful lot of our clients have at the moment is around the idea of, of what this is going to entail from the point of view of the volunteers or the local rugby club or tennis club and how they’re going to be able to enact that.

But from an awareness point of view, Adam Absolutely, yes. I think the insurance industry has a part to play. I think, sector wide representative bodies (the equivalent from a sports perspective, like the lobbying groups…the Sport and Recreation Alliance, all the national governing bodies are a part of sports, national associations themselves) [will have a major part to play in raising awareness]. Organisations that represent different types of venues, it’s those organisations, I think that we’d be looking to put awareness campaigns in place just to bring this to the attention of the much smaller, probably more volunteer, run groups.

Adam Clarke 33:29 

Will charities, educational establishments and volunteer organisations pool resources to comply with Martyn’s Law?

Yeah, I think that’s how I would expect it to be running as well, especially given, again, the wide scope of this. You know, where we’ve got it, for example, charities that will be in scope, as can potentially educational establishments, as all sorts of different boards that will be looking at how they can kind of come together to help everybody work out how they’re going to kind of manage this. Because again, for a lot of organisations, it’s going to be a new responsibility that they’re going to have to work towards, alongside everything else that they’ve got to do from a day-to-day perspective.

Are smaller organisations likely to have a grace period after Martyn’s Law comes into force?

And I suspect, again, to your point about the regulator and, and not being able to insure against the fines if there are if there are breaches. And the requirements for registration, and the sheer number of venues that are going to be in scope, handling, that initial piece of work is going to be quite an ask for the regulator to get all that information together.

And, you know, I can’t imagine that the resources that they’re going to have available to them is going to be able to get around, get around to all venues. So I suspect, as it would always be, there’ll be targeting the large organisations that fall under the enhanced premises first and then making sure that those are, especially as you mentioned, very topical at the moment with The Ashes going on, but probably a very, very likely target with a lot of national interest of those of those venues.

So, what I would expect to see when once it [Martyn’s Law] becomes active is a lot of information going out. And then the various different industries working out how best is to help the organisations that belong to them come up with some practical ways of delivering this, because I think there are a lot of practical ways of doing this. But it’s focusing on those areas where there’s most likely risk is going to happen.

Andy Goulbourne 35:32 

Ben used the word ‘proportionate’ earlier on when he was talking about the risk management measures that are required. And you’ve got to hope, I think, that that kind of element of proportionality is going to apply to the regulator and how they look to enforce this as well going forward.

I don’t think anybody would dispute the intention behind the bill and the benefits. But I’d like to think that sort of sitting behind this, there isn’t going to be a regulator that’s looking to target small local football clubs, cricket clubs, etc. and imposing unreasonable and excessive penalties on them.

You’d like to think that a regulatory approach to this is going to be proportionate as well, as you said, with regard to those areas where there is a clear exposure and a clear risk, I think,

Adam Clarke 36:19 

Yeah, absolutely. And the bringing anything new in, you’ve got to be realistic that year one or something going live, you’re gonna get a fair bit of traction with those who are very aware. And then it’s trying to bring everybody else along. But it’s, it’s taking people on a journey, where they’re becoming becoming familiar with what they’re required to do, starting off the process of evaluating and perhaps getting some training.

And then moving it forward, as more information becomes comes available. Until Martyn’s Law become a business as usual activity. And anybody starting a new organisation, new business, that comes in scope that will just [incorporate Martyn’s Law into their risk management from the outset].

Adam Clarke 37:10 

So, if we then can move on to the Q & A section?

Tracy Seward 37:17 

How will Martyn’s Law affect contractors?

We absolutely can, Adam, thank you, panel. We’ve had quite a number of questions come through as you would expect. I’ll start with the first that came through.

We are a construction contractor, we work in hospitals and schools, do we need to have anything in place? Or will we be covered by the hospital or school’s procedures? And does this bill actually affect us?

Ben Harris 37:39 

I’m happy to take that one. So, when specific to that question, it goes back to the duty holder, or the stakeholder that’s responsible for the premises. The liability lies with the duty holder. So, in many respects, a construction company or a contractor working on site will obviously need to be made aware of any procedures or policies or practices that are in place for that particular premises, and then obviously adhere to it accordingly.

So, the liability will always sit with the duty holder.

Adam Clarke 38:16 

I think just to just to add, there is always a duty of cooperation and coordination. So as Ben said, you’d expect the duty holder to engage with you as a as a contractor.

However, if you’re aware of this, and you’ve not been engaged on that particular topic, I would say, be proactive and discuss with them as part of your onboarding or your induction process – what do we need to be aware of? Because we often forget about people who are not permanent visitors to locations and they need to be aware of, in the event of this [this] is what we do. So, if not being engaged, then be proactive and ask the question.

Tracy Seward 39:00 

Is a school a ‘qualifying premises’?

Actually, then, the next question sort of touches on that.

Would a school be included as a qualifying premises, if open to the public for certain events, or used by external hires?

Unknown Speaker 39:12 

So, I think it says in the bill that it [a qualifying premises] could be a premises or part of a premises to which public access is permitted. So, in that instance, against the current draft building, yes, that would be applicable.

I think, given the draft bill, we have some stipulation about what a premises might be. But the list is quite short. And it is very much entertainment, and sort of classic public places. But then when you get down to the sort of low order questions, which is, you know, public place within a school, within a library within any amount of things, and yes, there’s going to be some nuanced approach about how a proportionate and appropriate response to that is.

But yes, specifically that question, then it would be applicable under the current draft bill.

Tracy Seward 39:58 

Will there be specific Martyn’s Law training for those in higher education?

Right next one. Can you recommend any training for education workforce and students, specifically higher education?

Ben Harris 40:07 

So, there is currently access through a number of avenues to what is being called the actor training package or action, counterterrorism. It’s fairly straightforward, six or seven stages. So that is publicly available in draft form at the moment.

And as I said previously, that would certainly give a good grounding in terms of what training and awareness package will look like. And it will give you that basic level of understanding from which you can start to implement new risk analysis, new risk measures, communications plans, and contingent plans in the event of a terrorist attack.

But it’s also worthy of saying that, despite the fact that [Martyn’s Law] is coming out, the proportionate risk of a terrorist attack hasn’t increased accordingly. There are still sufficient resources at the moment to manage the majority of terrorism threats within the UK.

But as has been stated, it’s [the] responsibility of public large to ensure that [they] can assist the UK really in having a timely response to it.

So, in answer the question there is there training available, I would like to see something a little bit more robust when the draft is drafted as finalised that is a little bit more exacting and open to everyone.

Adam Clarke 41:19 

Will training be tailored to the circumstances of different duty holders?

Just to get back on my on my previous point, you know, there will be more training that will be built by industry, or these industry groups, Andy was referring to earlier. We’ll be looking at solutions that they can provide to their members, so that we can get some more specifics in.

If we want to get value out of the training, it’s tailoring it as much as we can to each individual duty holder and the activities that are undertaken. So, going back to our previous question around the school, and I’m thinking about events, like you know, school fetes and sports day and all the other open days, where you are going to have a lot of children or parents or teachers and everybody on site, how can we manage those kinds of those kinds of events, because there’ll be common to thousands of duty holders across the country. So, we’d expect those to be to be developed, you know, well in advance of this being enacted.

Ben Harris 42:28 

What is the key to being prepared for a terrorist attack?

I think just to add to that, Adam, the other key to this is that you can implement training and awareness, you can construct in different plans, communication plans, but the key really to is to rehearsing those plans. It’s great having it but if you don’t rehearse them, God forbid, in the event of an attack, then you need to be best prepared to obviously, enact whatever plan you may have in place. So, rehearsals are key to this anyway.

Adam Clarke 42:52 

Why is Martyn’s Law training critical if the chances of a terrorist attack are low?

Yeah, it’s a great point, Ben, because, you know, what we’re saying here is that certainly for organisations that are in the lower bracket, the likelihood of an event occurring, remains very, very low. However, doesn’t mean that it can’t, and it doesn’t happen.

And thinking that it won’t happen, not having emergency plans in place and how you interact with it means that if an event does happen, people won’t be familiar. And then it becomes more difficult situation to manage.

Ben Harris 43:27 

Yeah, it’s also a transferable skill. So, if you’ve received training and awareness, as part of your business or organisation, you can take the centre of the proactive measures that the training provide to any venue that you might be visiting.

So, our duty, if you will, to report suspicious activity or items doesn’t stop and [and is not] defined by your physical perimeter around your business or organisation, so becomes a transferable skill. So, we all become part of the bigger the bigger community.

Tracy Seward 43:57 

Will venues that hold fewer than 100 members of the public fall under Martyn’s Law?

We’ve got quite a number of questions in from specific organisations asking if they if they qualify. And we can go back to each of those individually, just to answer those questions.

But as a more sort of generic overview, I think the premise of all these questions is summed up in this one:

Will venues that hold less than 100 members of the public be in scope (i.e., small gyms)? And we’ve got questions from offices where other people are coming in, when they’re booked in advance or aren’t booked in advance, [and] a small football grounds, for example.

Ben Harris 44:36 

Really the bottom order really is 100 people in terms of offices. It goes really back to the school question.

An office, generally speaking, is not publicly accessible. It will be accessible by invite only for visitors. It isn’t necessarily about the number of people in attendance. It’s the maximum capacity that public places could hold. So, the bottom bar is 100 or less. So, 99 or less will not be in scope currently against this current draft and Protect Duty. So, they will not be obligated to fulfil any requirements against the bill.

However, if there is an extension of the capacity of that premises and it tips over the 100, then there will become a requirement to comply with the bill and any non-compliance with the regulator will be obviously deemed a breach.

Andy Goulbourne 45:26 

What if a standard tier venue occasionally exceeds standard tier capacity?

If I can just come in there as well – you mentioned about the football club. I saw the question there on the basis of we’ve got a capacity of a couple of hundred, but we quite often only get double figures. It’s interesting to think about how, within scope and different areas during different times, different venues […]

If you take a small rugby club, for example, you may have a capacity of 400 people that would bring the rugby ground into the standard category within the bill as it stands at the moment. But rugby grounds are quite often the focus for say a village or towns fireworks display once a year. And at that point, the capacity that’s expected for an awful lot of these [events] is say between 1000 to 2000 people.

So, you’ll have a venue that for the majority of the time is caught within the standard venue within the bill, but then becomes an enhanced premises in respect of that particular event. And the requirements that then comply with the enhanced risk management. Preparedness for that category falls in when you go into that category for that limited amount of time. So, venues potentially are going to move between one category and another.

Adam Clarke 46:51 

And in that in that example, I think when you’re doing that kind of fireworks-based event, you would expect to have event planning event risk assessments already in place. And really what this is going to do is you’d now expect to see an element of that clearly in that plan as to how we’re going to deal with this specific situation.

So, most people who are organising these types of events will have that plan in place already. It’s just making sure that the plan clearly defines how that’s going to be managed.

Tracy Seward 47:25 

When does Martyn’s Law start?

And again, another question Adam, which you did touch on? And I think the answer is that we don’t know yet. But I’m going to pose it to you anyway. Is there a timescale of when the law moves from draft to pass through scrutiny for formal introduction as legislation?

Adam Clarke 47:41 

Yeah, I’m back to unfortunately, as to ‘how long is a piece of string’ kind of answer. You know, it could be a short period of time, it could be a long, long period of time. As Andy said, various people [are] lobbying this at the moment. It could go back and back and forth. So unfortunately, no, there’s there’s no answer to that

However, I would say is just keep an eye on the government websites. Any updates will be published on there.

So, when the draft bill was published on 2^nd May some guidance documents [were] uploaded. Keep an eye on keep an eye on the website and it will updated as and when there is anything to say.

Ben Harris 48:21 

Why should organisations start preparing for Protect Duty legislation now?

Just add to that, Adam, I think there’s some sort of prerequisite activity that can be conducted as certain elements of the bill that are unlikely to change, certainly around capacity size, and then the implications in terms of risk assessments and then training provision, they are unlikely to change in any particular form.

In advance of the finalisation of the bill, there’s certain measures that can be taken by organisations to reduce the impact when it is finalised, so that doesn’t become a enactment of everything instantly, it can be done iteratively.

Tracy Seward 48:59 

Will the CTSA network increase to meet resource requirements?

Thank you. Right on to the next question. The CTSA network is relatively small. Is there any plan to increase the cohort as they will not currently have the capacity to assist in increased demand for services?

Ben Harris 49:19 

Well, I’ll try and answer that one. So, the requirement really [is] for the bill is to increase resource. [But] answering the question around about sort of way, it’s unlikely that resource is going to grow.

The increase in resource is really coming from the enactment of the bill. So, it is passing responsibility on to duty holders and apprentices to become part of that larger pool of resources. […]

Tracy Seward 50:01 

Will there be a honeymoon period for organisations to become compliant?

Will there to be a honeymoon period for organisations to become compliant following the law being passed?

Ben Harris 50:09 

I suspect there must be. Adam already touched on it. When this launches, there’s some 300,000 businesses at the moment that might be eligible, be that standard or enhanced. And going back to the idea of resource, there isn’t going to be sufficient resource to look at everyone being compliant at the same time.

And it’s already been said that the priority would likely lie with those of greatest risk or threat. So, the enhanced premises that fall under sort of targetable infrastructure organisations or buildings [will be the focus].

I think also that it’s staged, so it isn’t a case of you are non-compliant, you’re then in receipt of a penalty. I imagine there’ll be a grace period for corrective measures to take place that [are] then reviewed. [Orders to implement corrective measures] will be time bounded, [and] there’ll be opportunity to remediate. And if these aren’t implemented, then obviously, it’d be a penalty or enforcement thereafter.

Adam Clarke 51:11 

Yeah, and just to add to that, when we are dealing with anything that’s new the enforcing authorities are realistic. They do expect that this is an additional requirement that’s going to be added.

And as has been said, it’s all coming down to resources. Those who go into the 800 or above are expected to have more resources in place. You may already have teams of people employed within these organisations that are responsible for doing this. And, as we speak now will already have very detailed plans in place for how they’re going to deliver this, if they’re not already meeting a lot of those require requirements, albeit on a voluntary basis.

Tracy Seward 51:57 

How will Martyn’s Law affect village hall hires?

And next question: we are a parish council, and we hire out our venue – will we be required to ensure all hires are aware of the procedures and policy, or will we need to ensure we have someone present at every hire […] [when events] exceed 800 people?

Ben Harris 52:16 

It’s a very good question. I think in time, the bill will stipulate. At the moment, as it currently stands, a personal [or] persons that are responsible for the provision of that security in the event of a terrorist attack will ultimately be responsible for the coordination and response to that attack.

So, it remains to be seen. It’ll either be the duty holder present to manage the event, or there will be clear guidance.  I think it really comes down to question of liability. I can’t imagine that visitors or those hiring events will become liable for the provision of response to a terrorist attack. So, I think the liability will still hold with the premise holder. In that respect, I imagined it would be the format. So, somebody would need to be present to coordinate.

Tracy Seward 53:04 

Will unscrupulous individuals profit from Martyn’s Law?

Will this law enable people to profit (e.g. fines, provide dodgy risk assessments, etc)? They go on to say, [as] terrorist attacks […] no one knows when and if it will happen, so some people would profit on wrong grounds.

Ben Harris 53:22 

I think the unfortunate thing is with anything, there’s always people that are going to act nefariously. I think the counters of that will be the regulators.

Well, it’s really down to the duty holder [duty holder’s decision], a risk assessment, in many respects, doesn’t necessarily require third party audit, or indeed, any third-party intervention. It’s something that can be managed internally, and it can be rehearsed and practised internally. And the risk assessment doesn’t necessarily have to take a specific form, it’s going to be specific to your business. So, the risk assessment is something that could be considered internally as a business.

Are there going to be people acting nefariously and offering services? Undoubtedly, as with as with anything, there will be people that are acting against goodwill.

Adam Clarke 54:06 

Unfortunately, yeah, almost certainly. There’s plenty of examples of that going on already, where there’ll be organisations who will be using marketing campaigns that [say] you must have this in place. If you don’t do this [this will happen].

Like Ben said earlier about the about the fines as a scaremonger to get something done, which may or may not be suitable for that for that organisation. However, again, I expect industry to…we’ll probably see some really good tools that get developed. Certainly, online tools where an organisation will be able to go through and select what industry sector do they fall in, what activities are they doing. [Tools may] prompt lots of really good questions that at the end will create a risk assessment that may well be suitable and sufficient.

So, yes, I would say to people, if it looks like it’s too cheap, it probably is. So, just be just be careful. And as always just do some background checking on the people that are looking to provide it for you. But there will definitely be lots of lots of good resources out there, which will help duty holders comply.

Tracy Seward 55:23 

Should organisations approach their insurers about Martyn’s Law cover?

And one question that’s coming in, I think for Andy, really: should I expect engagement from my insurer on this particular topic, or should I proactively engage with them?

Andy Goulbourne 55:35 

I think with this, as with any changes to health and health and safety legislation, as an organisation, you should be looking to your insurance brokers to provide you with some guidance on what needs to be enacted, on what the insurance implications of that are. So, it’s a topic that the insurance industry is very well aware of.

But I think, yes, businesses of all sizes and shapes should be looking to their insurance brokers to be raising this as a topic with them. And if they’re not, then they need to be asking the question of them in terms of what are the implications for me, what do I need to be putting in place? And how does that affect the insurance that I’m ultimately arranging for my protection?

Adam Clarke 56:12 

And I guess it’s just to add to that, when, at some point in time, when this is enacted, would you expect that the insurance industry, as part of reviewing of insurance, will add [this question to the] standard list of questions when you’re trying to gauge what risk is potentially there within the organisation?

Andy Goulbourne 56:32 

I think so. Yeah. In fairness, I think terrorism as a cover is something that an awful lot of organisations just don’t consider, at the moment, given their geographical location. If they’re outside of one of the big cities, for example, that they’re almost certainly not going to be considering it.

I think the regulations that are coming as a result of this will raise that in people’s consciousness. So, it will then become one of those [questions] when you when you’re having the conversation around how you protect your assets. Do you need to protect your revenue? Do you need to protect yourself against a terrorist attack? I think that [these questions need] to form or should be forming part of a regular review that a broker is doing with their clients.

Adam Clarke 57:12 

So, I’d imagine then that the result of Martyn’s Law will likely lead to more terrorist insurance being written.

Andy Goulbourne 57:20 

Possibly, if the assessments that people are doing [are] driving nervousness within the organisations, or if it reveals potentially an element of risk that they just haven’t considered that exists that they haven’t thought about before, then arguably, yes, I don’t know.

But what I would hope is that for an awful lot of smaller organisations, there may be new terrorism insurance products developed within the market, specifically targeted to serve that need of those organisations where there’s a nervousness. But in reality, the risk is very, very small. And it may be that there’s new products that can be developed by the industry to help deal with concern that people have.

Tracy Seward 58:07

Could an office social event fall under the scope of Martyn’s Law?

Thanks, Andy. One final question, which I think covers, again, a few questions that have come in on the nuance of kind of numbers at events and being slightly over or slightly under a threshold.

Once a quarter, we host external events in the office in the evening with capacity up to 90 with drinks food provided included in the ticket price. We would have our employees still present in the building, which means the total occupancy would be over 100. Do we need to register the event to stay compliant?

Ben Harris 58:40 

Yes, so the bill stipulates a premises and/or event. […] So yes, it covers events and premises. So that would be the case of instance.

Tracy Seward 58:58 

Thanks, guys, I think that’s pretty much covered the premise of the majority of questions anyway, because some of them obviously overlapped.

But if anyone does have any more questions that they want to send through, after today’s session, then please do email them to solutions@praxis42.com. And any questions submitted, we will get back to you directly.

Thank you, again, panel. That was a brilliant session, and very informative. And I hope everybody that joined agrees. We will be posting the questions and answers up on our resources page. And links to the recording of the webinar will also go out to everybody that signed up.

So that’s all for today. Thank you so much, everybody, and we hope to see you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai